July 16, 2017
Part II: Continuing Our Conversation About Theological Education
Special Disclosure Regarding This Interview
Proudly brought to you by Making Much of Christ Ministries, this two part blog project is a collaborative resource featuring content authors Brandon K. Rachal (Pastor and Life Advocate) and Marqueze Kennedy (seminary student at the prestigious Boston University). Primarily written as a Q&A, it is our hope that this style of interview would provide two alternative ways of processing and articulating a somewhat under-communicated topic in most Christian circles. Part One of this Q&A will feature 10 questions posed by a ghost interviewer followed by a bonus round where Marqueze and Brandon ask each other one challenge question. The goal of this project is not to exhaustively explore all things connected to theological education. Instead, it is our hope that Brandon and Marqueze’s exchange would really just start a very necessary conversation; prayerfully motivating you to pose more questions and seek more answers on your own. As with all things connected to our organization, it is our hope that this worthy pursuit would help you to aim your affections to supremely value of the supremely valuable in Jesus The Christ. Enjoy!
(1.) Many pastors and spiritual leaders lack formal educational experience regarding theology. What are your thoughts about that?
Marqueze: I do understand that my response to this question is going to seem a little extreme but I 100% believe that all pastors and spiritual leaders should have formal education experience regarding theology. This is not to say that all pastors who lack this training are bad pastors or that they are somehow inadequate. I believe there are many pastors and spiritual leaders out there who lack formal theological training yet excel at their jobs and really help the church. Here’s the way I look at the situation. If I am sick in a hospital and I have a choice between the doctor who got his medical degree from a well respected institution and another doctor who didn’t have a degree but spends his free time reading about medical conditions on WebMD, I am without a doubt going to pick the doctor who has the degree in medicine. This isn’t to say that the other doctor couldn’t diagnose me or get me better but it is a safety precaution we take in this country in order to make sure that people’s lives don’t get ruined by unqualified yet well-meaning people. I think if you really care about your career choice that much, you will take the methods necessary to become qualified for that job. As much as I may want to start teaching Bible in universities at this moment, I know that I have a lot more steps to go through and that those steps are going to ensure that I’ve been through the right training and am qualified enough for the job. Most importantly I think it is crucial for pastors and spiritual leaders to become theologically educated to prevent the constant dissemination of false claims. The best way to keep yourself from passing on these claims is to educate yourself and figure out correct information about whatever content is in question. For all the pastors and spiritual leaders who already have some formal theological training, great job and keep up the good work. To the pastors and spiritual leaders who don’t have that formal training yet, no matter how far you are in your pastoral careers, it’s never too late to further educate yourself. It won’t hurt and may even open your eyes to new ways of interpreting and teaching Scripture.
Brandon: First I would like to refer our audience to my thoughts presented in response to Marqueze’s challenge question at the end of Part 1 of this interview. I believe it illustrates a portion of my ideology concerning the local church, it’s community, and the maturation of Bible-Believing Christians. With that being said, absolutely no specific schooling should be required for being a pastor. Requiring a person to go through 4th grade, 12th grade, 4 years of college, 3 years of seminary, or 3 more years towards a PhD is not biblical. Indeed, I could provide evidence of some of the most faithful, fruitful, and passionate pastors in America who have no more than a high school education. Consider C.J. Mahaney; a dynamic ministry leader, CJ actually founded a Pastor’s college. It is not a grandiose institute like many of our current seminaries; but rather a place that provides some insight, wisdom, shaping, depth, Bible, and experience. These are biblical attributes presented in Scripture. And while I appreciate Marqueze’s thoughts on other professions receiving formal education; I’d argue that our entire educational structure has failed us already; which is precisely why our communities are fighting for educational reformation as we speak. Factually, more and more graduates are proving to be ill-equipped for their chosen careers irrespective of their formal education. We must realize that systematizing our education does not universally lead to deep thinking and able individuals. I would also argue that the historical approach of direct-line mentoring is still a better methodology to produce proficient “disciples” of any trade. Consider the medical field for example. More and more doctors, physical therapist, and health advocates are actually turning away from main-line health institutes and turning towards private clinics and training modules for certifications post mandatory classes. Many are close acquaintances of mine who discuss this with me regularly. They would argue that students are increasingly realizing that they are better served learning from a local doctor in his private practice or a master physical therapist in her clinic as opposed to sitting in more and more classrooms.
You have to get in the trenches.
Truly, I believe mentoring (or discipling) is not only the more effective form of training someone; but is literally God’s intended way for us to interact with each other. So while I affirm the concept of training Pastors and spiritual leaders towards their calling; I believe we must be careful regarding the elevation of formal schooling. Let us not supersede the Bible; but rather say what the Bible says… Nothing more and nothing less. I would point people to Scripture; namely ~ 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9. We should be able to interpret from these texts that some combination of mentoring, opportunities for experience, personal study, prayer, and some sort of a training(educating) should take place. In conclusion, we should not presume that churches must have leaders with a Masters of Divinity. (A common path many pastors take educationally) There are so many MDivs who are incompetent pastors…some even holding PhDs! Likewise, there are people without them who would make really good pastors. I think all of that is changing already in our culture, and I’m hopeful about what I see towards the future.
(2.) How would you respond to people who express contentment with only an hour sermon on Sunday’s as their full involvement with God, The Church, and their faith?
Marqueze: If people are content with only the one hour sermon on Sunday’s as their full involvement with God, The Church, and their faith, I think that is fine as long as they realize that one person (their pastor) is 100% in control of their Christian walk. When you only have one source of information educating you on all matters of faith, doctrine, Scripture, counseling, personal walk, etc., that person has the ability to significantly alter your worldview. As much as we would like to believe that all people who work in churches are good people who have nothing but the best for your future, sadly this is not true. Though there are many great people who want to benefit your life, there are others who are more than willing to exploit you to benefit their own. Receiving theological education outside of that one hour sermon helps checks against that. It’s also beneficial to receive further education on matters of the faith considering it is the cornerstone by which we as Christians choose to live our lives. I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve talked to people concerning different things in Church History or the Scriptures and they weren’t only blown away but many times had to change the way they thought about a certain passage or subject. This isn’t to say every Christian in church has to get a PhD in Religion or Bible, I’m just saying that I think it’s a smart idea to become more knowledgeable concerning the guidelines in which you live your life.
Brandon: I honestly wouldn’t respond with any direct retort to their statement. A few years ago? Perhaps. But the more I hopefully grow in maturity, the more I realize that someone’s affections, desires, and thus appetite are rarely enlarged by being informed they need more of Jesus. Instead, I would either allow my life to do the demonstrating of the necessity of these qualities or I would explain how those qualities directly affected my life as a whole. I believe God would be most pleased with this approach.
(3.) Why should churches implement theological education into the fabric of their communities?
Marqueze: I am extremely blessed to have a mother who was willing to support me along the way so that I was able to get the education I have today, but I also recognize not everybody had the same type of support I had or for whatever reason just didn’t have the opportunity to go off to school for a Bible degree. I think this is why it is important for Churches to start implementing theological education into the fabric of their communities. Education is key. World leaders know this. CEO’s of fortune 500 companies know this. Tyrants know this. The only way to make progress for our churches is for people to become educated on all matters of Christianity.
Brandon: Agreed. The church is created to be the hub of Christianity, therefore “we” must embrace the responsibility of providing a robust theological training center where both discipleship and biblical training is not only provided but made attractive. As this implementation is made more of a priority by our local churches,; there will be less compulsion to outsource our training to "surrogate institutions"; many with no direct affiliations…nor accountability to local bodies of Christ. Why is this critical? Because unhelpful habitudes of hypercritical-isms are often developed where deep teaching is divorced from the local church. And I would estimate that more effective and lasting disciples would be made if our local churches accepted the call to be primary educators of theology.
(4.) What level of theological education should a Christian have before they are considered theological sound?
Marqueze: Honesty, I don’t think there is any “level” of education that would make somebody theologically sound. I know people who have Ph.D’s in Theology who, in my opinion, do not have the best theology. I also know people who had either no, or very low levels of formal theological education who are well-read on the subject and have what I would consider to be very sound theology. I think the goal a Christian should have when it comes to theological education is to learn as much as they possibly can. You have to think of Christianity like a puzzle. Depending on what angle you look at the puzzle and the type of lighting your have on the image, your interpretation of the puzzle can drastically change. But the more pieces you have, the clearer of a picture you can put together. Sadly, with theological education, the puzzle never ends, you simply just keep adding pieces.
Brandon: I believe my most pure answer is that I honestly don’t know how to properly respond to the latter portion of this question. Anointing someone as theologically sound seems a bit out of my comfortability of knowledge and capacity. I guess I would be most comfortable saying that someone who is theologically sound has adequate wisdom (not knowledge) concerning God, Jesus The Christ, The Holy Spirit, scripture, humanity, salvation, sin, church, and how each of these interconnect through the overarching redemptive story of God to His people for His glory. And listen closely because this is weighty…. It must be confirmed by Christ-centered fruitfulness.
(5.) What advice would you give someone who just started their theological studies?
Marqueze: The biggest advice I would give to someone who just started their theological studies is to keep an open-mind. I want to make it clear, I did not say to believe everything you’re taught, rather, keep an open-mind when it comes to learning. There are MANY jarring things one may encounter while on their theological journey. The worst thing you can do when coming in contact with something that shocks you or goes against everything you’ve ever been told is to push it away. At some point you will have to accept that you or the people who taught you Christianity at a young age did not know everything about Scriptures and may have even accidentally taught you wrong information (look back to question 1 for my solution to this). Your professors at seminary won’t know everything either, which is why I said you shouldn’t just believe whatever they tell you, but you will have to accept that they are probably more educated on the subject than your local pastors or spiritual leaders (look back to question 1 for my solution this this problem).
Brandon: INCREASE your devotion life: The next few years of your academic pursuit will focus on a wide range of theological topics that can be overwhelming to organize within your heart and mind. And if you aren’t attentive, you can easily become hardened as you spend more time deepening your knowledge about Christianity separate from a deepening of wisdom that comes from an active and pleasurable relationship with the God of Christianity marked by Grace. Remember, you will be spending much time in the Bible for knowledge and academics. Therefore you must FIGHT to keep the Bible alive and transformative in your life. To the degree that one stretches themselves theologically, is to that same degree they should ferociously devote themselves further to prayer and devotion.
ORDER your life proportionately: As a seminary student, life can become quite hectic; and most commonly, students are jointly committed to their spouses, children, and/or jobs. The busyness of life can place a stopgap between the soul care needed to endure life and the necessary rhythms to ensure that you avoid spiritual burnout. A failure to create healthy rhythms of rest, recreation, study, fellowship, prayer, devotion, and service; often…and negatively affect the viewpoint of how you infuse what you are learning academically. Creating a well-balanced and proportional life rhythm is quintessential for the successful seminary student who desires to be a Bible-Believing Christian who is equipped to actually help people.
COMMIT yourself to the local church in humility: To do so is to honor, trust, submit, and follow Jesus, the Bible, and God’s creative design for you. Oppositely, detachment from a robust commitment to the local church is to dishonor, doubt, disobey, and neglect Jesus, The Bible, and God’s creative design for you. Regardless of how you feel about people within the church, the command to be in of the church has been given by God. After all the intellectual rhetoric and debate is over; there’s still no other way to slice the proverbial cake. Show me the seminary student who refuses to submit himself to a local body of Christ, and I will show you a student who has (perhaps unknowingly) declared that his wisdom and life experiences have superseded God’s wisdom command for his or her communal participation. In my humble opinion, that’s a dangerous place to do well.
ORDER your life proportionately: As a seminary student, life can become quite hectic; and most commonly, students are jointly committed to their spouses, children, and/or jobs. The busyness of life can place a stopgap between the soul care needed to endure life and the necessary rhythms to ensure that you avoid spiritual burnout. A failure to create healthy rhythms of rest, recreation, study, fellowship, prayer, devotion, and service; often…and negatively affect the viewpoint of how you infuse what you are learning academically. Creating a well-balanced and proportional life rhythm is quintessential for the successful seminary student who desires to be a Bible-Believing Christian who is equipped to actually help people.
COMMIT yourself to the local church in humility: To do so is to honor, trust, submit, and follow Jesus, the Bible, and God’s creative design for you. Oppositely, detachment from a robust commitment to the local church is to dishonor, doubt, disobey, and neglect Jesus, The Bible, and God’s creative design for you. Regardless of how you feel about people within the church, the command to be in of the church has been given by God. After all the intellectual rhetoric and debate is over; there’s still no other way to slice the proverbial cake. Show me the seminary student who refuses to submit himself to a local body of Christ, and I will show you a student who has (perhaps unknowingly) declared that his wisdom and life experiences have superseded God’s wisdom command for his or her communal participation. In my humble opinion, that’s a dangerous place to do well.
(6.) Would you say there are any important universal themes that are not explored in the common seminary experience?
Marqueze: It’s hard for me to pick any universal themes being that I am not sure exactly what a common seminary experience is. I have my own personal seminary experience and most other seminary experiences I know about come from classmates of mine who obviously went to the same seminary. In my opinion there was not any theme that did not get explored that should have been. I will say, though, that from what I hear about other seminaries across the country, a deeper criticism of the Scriptures is often missing. I think some places might be scared to be so critical of the Bible because it is held as God’s sacred Word but in my experience strong criticism of the Scriptures has only led to a greater appreciation for them. You start to uncover parts of the Bible that you never knew were there. This may not be a theme per se but I do believe a lack of diverse thinking is apparent through many seminaries across the country.
Brandon: Here’s the issue. When a student graduates from their academic experience, their diploma signifies that they are “ready for service.” Service could be practiced as pastors, teachers, and many other types of leadership positions within churches and Christian organizations. Even for the student who attends school solely for their personal edification; there is an unspoken expectation that the academic rigor they subjected themselves to will somehow translate into the fabric of their daily lives. So under this pretense, I believe basic entrepreneurship, social and communication skills for the unique task of ministry, and how ministry, marriage, work, in unison are overlooked. And before we consider these themes as “outside” the realm of seminary, we must recognize that the lack of the aforementioned themes directly lead to more complex-sin and vocational burn-out as opposed to any theological concept they studied; this is statistically proven. So either we supplement the current academic landscape to be inclusive of these themes or we re-define our definition of what the completion of this type of degree signifies.
(7.) Do you ever come across any challenging or difficult theological components in your studies? If so, how do you deal with them?
Marqueze: I can’t even count how many times I left class or finished reading a book and had to rethink my entire belief system because of some difficult theological component I had just came across. One of my Bible professors at Azusa Pacific University taught me something I will never forget. He taught me the concept of Re-imagination when it comes to the Scriptures. I may have grown up being taught the wrong information about a passage or the Scriptures as a whole, but just because I misunderstood them for all these years didn’t mean that my whole faith system has to fall apart. You just have to learn how to re-imagine the text. The entirety of Scripture can keep its importance and meaning, sometimes you will just have to learn a different reason why. That’s how I learned to deal with difficult components.
Brandon: Almost every day I come across challenging and difficult scriptures that challenge my ability to understand them, integrate them in juxtaposition to other text, and most importantly, apply them in such a manner that fits the biblical prescription. For me, making God well-pleased with my life’s work is of infinite importance. Overtime, I have learned the freedom that comes with making temporary peace with what I may not be able to grasp today; trusting that overtime God will reveal Himself (and His word) to me. This can occur in a multitude of ways. The more I mature the more the anxiety of trying to “know all things immediately” dissipates. There’s beauty to be cherished in the unknown. There are gifts of patience to be learned in God’s timing. There’s wonder to be experienced in a full life’s pursuit of the God of the Bible.
(8.) What is something you’ve learned through theological education that has transformed the way you live?
Marqueze: One thing I learned through theological education that has transformed the way I live has been how Scripture emphasis on care for the poor. I knew that caring for those in need of help was part of being a Christian but I did not know how big of a role it played. Whether it’s Yahweh’s laws in the book of Exodus or Deuteronomy or the Major prophets or Gospel or whatever. All throughout Scripture our God has a serious concern for the poor that He is willing to even put above His own chosen people. If you want more information on this you can read my blog “Orphans, Widows, and Foreigners: A Biblical response to Social Justice”. Recognizing this emphasis on care for the poor forever life-changing.
Brandon: Isaiah 58:10-11 has powerfully transformed the way I live. It reads:
If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. And the Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places and make your bones strong;and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water,whose waters do not fail.
The entire ministry of Making Much of Christ Ministries is founded upon this verse. And if you simply look up at the top of your screen, you will notice this blog platform has been named after this portion of scripture.
(9.) What developments would you like to see in seminary over the next 50 years?
Marqueze: This is easy. A higher diversity of professors when it comes to race, sex, gender, and culture. In recent years that has been a big move in Biblical Studies that has focused on how interpretation of Scripture is significantly impacted by a person’s social location. That being said, this is a field largely dominated by white males, so I would like to see a field with more diverse professors.
Brandon: Imagine the church that elevates the importance of theological education as much as their building developments for the new basketball gymnasium or fancy youth room. Can you visualize with me the financial portfolio of the local body who makes room for professors and teachers to join their staff? What would it mean for members to receive free education directly in community with those whom they serve with every Sunday? What blessings would await The Church that successfully infuses what we currently separate as seminary and church? This is what I would love to see in 50 years.
(10.) As this collaborative interview comes to a close, are there any final thoughts each of you would like to share concerning the importance of theological education?
Marqueze: I think we’ve shared a good amount about how we both see theological education as incredibly important. My final comment would be to really push the idea of keeping an open-mind. It’s hard to even learn and progress when you are unwilling to change. I know that as Christians we like to hold on to our doctrines and beliefs so tightly that we are unwilling to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us and make changes in this world. We are not static and neither is our God. We worship a living God that is ever working in the world and we have to be willing to adapt to His will. That’s all.
Brandon: Marqueze has answered this question well. So to be helpful, I would like to add a counter-point for others on the opposite side. So for those who are in the thick of their seminary experience…as you awaken to new mysteries and see the errors made by local churches, I would implore you to follow the same prescription Marqueze has intelligently communicated. Students, “Remain open-minded and don’t hold on to what you are learning so tightly that you do not allow the Holy Spirit to work through you to help change the world.” For God desires this to occur through the conduit of the church. Finally, love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Be well.
*Special Challenge Question*
Each interviewee we will ask each other one thought provoking question that their counterpart will answer.
In your estimation, what are the three most endearing qualities of the Christian church that encourages and motivates you as a Bible believing Christian? Why?
Marqueze: I think the three most endearing qualities of the Christian church are it’s diversity, it’s emphasis on evangelism, and it’s strive to be greater. I think the Christian church is incredibly diverse. Way more diverse than we give it credit for and I think that is what allows it to be so unique. I like the church’s emphasis about teaching people the way of God and showing them Jesus with their focus on evangelism. I just think it needs to focus less on conversion and more on love and care when it comes to evangelism. I also think the church’s focus on establishing God’s kingdom on this earth is what makes it continually strive to be greater. I don’t think we can have God’s kingdom established until we have seen His love take priority over all aspects of this earth. We aren’t there yet but we will never give up. I love that about the Christian church.
Some seminaries do not require professors to profess any specific faith for them to teach theology or Bible. They can be Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or even Atheist. How do you feel about this?
Brandon: Truthfully, it took me some time to process this to the point where I felt like I had an answer. Sometimes lengthy opinions leads to more confusion; so I’m discerning this to be a subject that a short answer would be well-suited for on this platform. Therefore, my concise answer is I believe it is misapplication of a seminary’s purpose to employ professors of other faiths to teach theology or Bible at their institutions.
To continue the second half of this interview click HERE
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visit the website: MAKING MUCH OF CHRIST MINISTRIES
To learn more about The God who’s ready to walk with you click HERE
TELL US WHAT YOU THINK!